CO2 Foot Pedal info on page 2, Not yet a beginner..

[RussJ]

G'day to everyone, from Australia
I have been interested in engraving since I purchased Meeks "The art of Engraving" 25 years ago, unfortunately or perhaps fortunately I went the way of pantograph and later computer engaving and made a living from this business up until 3 years ago, when I sold the business.
My interest has been rekindled and I would like to learn the art of hand engraving, I was initailly looking at buying a competitors' air engraver, once I found this site and read the glowing reports, saw the simplicity of the Lindsay engravers, I've lost enthusiasm for the former.
As much as I would like to, my budget wont stand a trip to the US to particpate in a class, and I dont believe there are any hand engravers in our area (about half way between Melbourne and Sydney), to learn from, so to my questions, are DVD's and books the way to go? which equipment I should purchase initially?

I would love to hear your comments and suggestions, from beginners and experienced alike on how I should go learning this art.


Best regards Russ

[Zernike Au]

Hello Russ,
I got the same condition as yours. No class here in Hong Kong.
My experience:

1. Try hand graver first, it is the simplest way and the most economic way to try engraving. if you cannot go further (hand pain like me), buy the air-assist tools, of course I will recommend Lindsay's tool. They are the best. (I am not his salesman! )
2. The book you have is excellent.
3. Read through this forum ( I spend one to two hours every day to study the previous post). I found Steve's site and forum is the very up-to-date and the very best "Book and Video". You can find nearly everything about engraving.
4. Then you will know more what you need and you can start to cut. Post your problems or questions here and a lot of experts will help.


Hope this may help.

Zernike

[rodstan]

Hey Russ
There are a few hand engravers in Oz , just that we are spread 500 miles or more apart.
For us aussies, lots of reading , DVDs etc,Steves tutorials on his sites and the forums.I have been engraving 25 + years with a break in the middle, still trying to catch up.Started with Meeks, hammer and chisel,Gravograph panto.
The Lindsay is the best engraver for us Aussies as it is self contained (no extra control boxes).Just waiting for the exchange rate to get better.
Rod

[Dave London]

Welcome Russ
Since hands on class is out there are DVD's that you can rent I lost my bookmark of the site by if you google engraving DVD's it should come up. Also you can buy them Ray Cover has one out I have not seen it but the reviews here are great. The Meeks book is great but not much for using Airgravers and current graver sharpening equipment. My list of tools are as follows Ball Vice around 25 lbs weight or more, diamone hone and sharpening fixture, Steves Airgraver, Graver blanks Carbalt, M42, and HHS/ a microscope or optivisor, turntable if you use a microscope , a good chair.Once you get the tools practice, practice, etc,etc If I can help any send me a PM or email. Dave

[Big-Un]

Jeff Freeman and his son are engravers and spur makers, living in Eugowra, wherever that is. I couldn't find it on a map or via Google Earth, but he said it was on the east side of Australia. Sorry I couldn't be more help. I was in a class with him and he is quite good.

[RussJ]

Thx to everyone who replyed to my post, over the last couple of weeks I've been reading in this forum I've learned a lot, and suggestions for forum members have helped to get things in perspective, can anyone tell me if the Hamler sharpener is still available?, or if there are alternates sharpeners available, from posts I've read sharpening appears to be a critical part of hand engraving, any other suggestions on sharpening cutters or anything else would be most appreciated.

regards Russ J

[Norsksea]

Hi Russ
If you are still deciding which equipment to purchase initially start with the Classic Air graver with foot control. It costs less than a Gravermach and 901 handpiece. Down the road you upgrade your Classic to a Palm Control. Shipping to Australia would be less due to the smaller box.
Frank

[Dave London]

Russ
Tha hammler fixture was sold out as far as I know. He was going to make more dont know where the process stands, Steve L is coming out with a fixture also last I heard might check with him

[RussJ]

Classic with foot valve is what I'm leaning towards at the moment, Pc looks great but may break the budget when costing in a sharpener, vice, etc.
I would like to run CO2, and avoid having to run an airline from my garage to the back room, as I understand it the foot control uses a lot more CO2, which is a it of a a pain to get in my area, that is KMart etc dont keep it and I would have to get cylinders filled at the local industrial gas suppler.

I contacted Paul Hamler he said he was not making any more sharpeners, Steve suggested his would be available in a couple of weeks.

Regards Russ J

[Dave London]

Russ
You cant go wrong with either the foot control or PC, and you can allways upgrade later if you want to. The foot control does have a constant bleed air port so it does use more air than the PC but nothing that I would call excessive.

[Norsksea]

The Classic uses a little more CO2, but it can use CO2 the Gravermach can not. You could get away with using a smaller air compressor because it uses only .05 CFM.
Frank

[Steve Lindsay]

This picture is a CO2 foot pedal that went out this week. It has an on off/toggle as well as an extra port for rotary or etc..

I tested the air flow of the foot pedal Classic and PalmControl. The read out is in ml/minute and we need it in CFM (cubic feet/minute). I used this page to help convert the numbers.
http://www.iprocessmart.com/techsmart/conversions.htm

Here are the results:
PalmControl set at 35 PSI
Idle: 38.16 ml/min = .001348 CFM
Full throttle: 4333 ml/min = .153027 CFM

Foot pedal set at 35 PSI
Idle: 569 ml/min = .020095 CFM
Full throttle: 4333 ml/min = .153027 CFM

We can average the idle and full throttle together to discover normal usage.
PalmControl normal usage: 2185.58 ml/min = .077718 CFM
Foot Pedal normal usage: 2451 ml/min = .086561 CFM

The stroke adjustment effects the full throttle flow. The above readings were taken with the Classic stroke adjustment at the longest stroke. Both tools use around 2500 ml/min when set at the shortest stroke at full throttle (at 35 PSI). Therefore for average usage of the tools at a short to meduim stroke setting they are using approx .04 to .05 CFM .

With the PalmControl, the COS 16 gram cartridges get around 20 minutes. The 567gram (20oz) paintball co2 cylinders around 8 hours. How long they last is dependent what you are doing. i.e. if digging deep background cuts, not as long as shading or outlining.

Steve

[Norsksea]

The GraverMach requires a minimum of 1.4 cfm at 45 psi of compressed air. Thats almost 10 times more than Classic at full throttle and 28 times more air than the Classic at it's average usage speed. WOW
Frank

[RussJ]

Great info, we have a paint ball arena in town I'm going to talk to them about CO2 refills, if the PB outfit uses US made guns, the cylinder fittings should be the same thread as supplied on the regulator??

The Gravermach is not on my radar at the moment, I like the Airgraver's simplicity compared to the complexity of the GM, Lower the parts count in any machine the less there is to go wrong.

[Daniel Houwer]

Right on the spot I think. I was doubting, but not anymore.
Thank's for your thread RussJ,
The only doubt now is wether to get the classic with footcontrol versus PC versus my budget.

[Daniel Houwer]

Hi,

Got my Palm Controle a month ago.
I bought 2 20oz co2 cylinders the other day and freedom to engrave whereever I want is my gain! Even on the train I could do my exercises!
Although to keep a low profile without buzzing noise I keep to pushengraving on rush hours.
But what will my little class say when tomorrow evening I can give them the oportynity to play with the Lindsay Classic Palmcontrole!!!!
Alas this will not boost Steve's sales.
But I (the palm controle) convinced at least 2 collegues that this tool is the better air assist engraving tool around! (showed it to only 2 that work with the grs system but many more will follow)

Greetings,

Daniel

[mckeenh]

So explain to me the reason that the palm and classic can use CO2 and the GRS tools cannot. Is it something to do with the internals? or is it an icing problem?

Neil:yesnod:

[powderhorn]

McKeeth;
The main reason is that Steves tools just sip air, while the GRS tools gulp it.

[vilts]

If I remember correctly it was in the principle of how these tools work. Basically Classic is a low pressure unit - to get it working you add more air. GRS works the other way round - it consumes max air all the time and when you press the pedal it starts to take away air and handpiece starts to work.

About a month or 2 ago someone wrote a very detailed description in this very forum of how these tools work.

My father will switch to Lindsay Classic just because he doesn't like the way GRS tools are (over)engineered and how much air they consume. (No, this is not a tool war start, just one opinion). With foot pedal Classic and 21 liter compressor tank I can engrave about 1 hr before I need to refill. I guess the time will double or more with PalmControl.

Originally Posted by mckeenh

So explain to me the reason that the palm and classic can use CO2 and the GRS tools cannot. Is it something to do with the internals? or is it an icing problem?

Neil:yesnod:

[SVD]

Neil,

The GRS unit uses a rotor (inside the box) to provide the pulses. They use the air to 'lubricate' the rotor - that's why you shouldn't turn a GRS unit on unless the air is connected. Because of this they are always using air.

Steve's units work differently (since everything is there in your hand) so they use much less air.

You could run a GRS unit off of a tank but it will bleed it dry in X amount of time whether you're engraving or not.

I think this message from up the thread a bit explains it well:

Originally Posted by Norsksea

The GraverMach requires a minimum of 1.4 cfm at 45 psi of compressed air. Thats almost 10 times more than Classic at full throttle and 28 times more air than the Classic at it's average usage speed. WOW
Frank

[mckeenh]

Thanks guys. I guess a lindsay is in my future. I wish I had known all of this before I started engraving. Why didn't you start this site sooner STEVE!

Neil:yesnod: