thoughts

[T.G.III]

Here are a couple locks from the second vol. of the "Art of the Gunmaker" clearly one is highly chiseled, leaning to the position that many of the drawing plates are pulls from actual pieces.

This has been a good thread and very informative, I mis-represented a date in a previous post but still hold to my convictions, but deserves another thread at a later date.

Enjoy the pics.

missing pic

[charles starks]

Very good post Roger .
could you provide links to where we could see these works ?
i would have to agree with gobbler . while there are some that still may do this work , frankly there seems to be few .
the heavy floral and leaf scrolls seem to be more commonly replaced by the line type scrolls .
don’t get me wrong this isn’t a bad thing I, its just different and as you say still takes a high level of skill .
One thing that was touched on that I think we have kinda passed over is the tools available in the early periods .
Now please correct me if im wrong here but I wouldn’t think the engravers back then had cobalt or other steals that we have today to make gravers . Probably the best steel would have been of high carbon but still not to the level of carbon tool steels we have today .
But then we also would have to consider that the materials they were working on were most times iron .
Would also maybe the tools have changed concerning today’s graver points ? Or are the points today very reminiscing of the tools available then ?
I also wonder if as the metals changed that items were made from , if the available tools kept up with these changes .
Could there have been a situation where simply put the available tools simply were no longer adequate for doing this type of work ?

TG , no worries here , we are all learning , i know i am anyway .
Im also going to start another thread and that will be along these lines maybe we can get some more intest in a slightly diffrent topic but still along this same area

[Tom McArdle]

Hi Roger,

Thanks for your post. you said more authoritatively and succinctly most of what I was trying to say! Your point about the aristocracy is a great one I had not thought of.

take care,

Tom

Tom

[puffer]

Roger, I am glad, you chimed in. Your thought follow some of thae I have been thinking about.

BTW. Your reference tio the quality of the engravers, is IMHO correct.

Puffer

[Zernike Au]

Originally Posted by charles starks

Not sure which photo you refer to but I assume it’s the last photo I posted

Thanks Charles, sorry the photo is posted by Puff at the post No. 47. Any tips to dig out more information, wood cannot raise blur to hold gold or silver like steel! Adhesive? Or you going to talk about it in your other thread?

Let me try again: By the time we have Louis D. Nimschke , what happened in other European countries on or before that period, any other great engraver who leading the whole trend in different European countries like Belgium, Germany, Austria, Italy or France? I mean not only in Gun industry but also other industry like jewelly.....?

Thanks Roger for the great information, I love Baroque music..

Zernike

[charles starks]

wood cannot raise blur to hold gold or silver like steel! Adhesive? Or you going to talk about it in your other thread?

What your asking is about inlays to wood . It is something like inletting to steel .
Especially when doing fine wire works . A trough is opened , the silver or what have you is burred on its edges to help it hold and its forced into the opening . Now you can and most folks do add a little hoof glue or other glue to help bind the inlay into place but this only helps the binding action of the wood itself as it tries to force itself back closed ..
With the large inlay puffer posted , this would be glued and or even pinned in place . the pins matching the inlay and hidden within the work itself . Sometime the pins are left to show as decorations in and of themselves

[charles starks]

I think that while the styles did change from baroque to rococo just as roger has described , I think another issue also started showing its head during the same time frame, especially concerning the Americas. Not only did line type engraving really seem to be the norm , if we look at what relief is found on especially rifles , it appears to be more castings then actual engraving .
Thus I cant help but wonder if there still was a large section of the populations that wanted this old style of work , but just did not want to pay the price . This I think would have been compounded by the large numbers of weapons flowing into this country .
An original work could be simply copied in the casting .

However those of us that do casting of parts know that the result does not carry near the appeal of the actual engraving and relief work .
I think the acceptance of casting though also played a part in the decline of actual relief engravings
Here are some examples of originals documented by Hamilton in his study called Colonial Frontier gun.
This is another fantastic study . While this book mostly documents actual pieces found in archeological digs and such and while these pieces have obviously seen their better days , we can still see the differences between the actual engraving and the castings .
I wonder how much plagiarism also played a part ?

what i assume to be the Original engraving


and knock offs obviously based of the same design but with far less skill in the work ?


here also is a comparision of work found at the end of the 18th century

[Zernike Au]

I am coming...
Thanks Charles for the great photo but I would like to know the appro. year and the country of the gun you show in the comparsion photos, I mean your post no. 107, are they from Europe, which country?
If I can understand correctly, you are talking about original engraving and casting, is all these guns are original or casting? I saw the lettering on some photos is Old English, is this gun from British? If not, where is the font "Old English" from? Which country use this font firstly?

Sorry my monitor may different from yours so I am not sure which one is casting but the photos are so beautiful, you have all these gun?

Thanks.

Add: I mean the color photos.....not the black and white one.
Zernike

[charles starks]

the photos of the fowler and SXS are all English made By Moore . Larson and Manton .
the date to the golden age of the SXS so they are late 1770 -1790
now none of these are castings but actual engravings , the castings are the lock plates shown in Black and white . the casting compression is of the plates themselves . I had a couple other photos i though i put up , i guess i messed those up .
now here are some more examples from Mr. Lindsay’s documentation

this is a bribe piece built by LaPage and commissioned by the French government for Abd el Kadir before his capture in 1847 . the side plat and pommel i believe to be castings


these are shown as Schwindels work don in about 1715


in comparission and at about the same date as the SXS i posted this morninf is this volley gun done approx 1795
inscribed Dupe&Co,, Perdition to Conspirators , Glen Frost 1793. whit this alone I'll defend Robro Camp 1795




compaired to this work done in 1814 for ptince osten-Sachen the barrels are signed leopold Bernardo and the precussion locks signed Zaoue

I believe that the larger parts of this peice are castings and not the actual engravings





that brings us to these to fine exsamples of
#1 Henry rifle dated 1860
#2 a Winchester model 66" gold plated " dated 1872



again these all “ this post “ come from Merrill Lindsay’s book : An Illustrated history of firearms . we must give credit where credit is do , for the fine documentation

[puffer]

This thread has been an eye opener for me.:whoo:
For more years than I like to think about, I have been envolved with firearms, as a shooter,instructor & owner. Although I have had the privilage of seeing a fair number of "ETCHED' & decorated, fireams ( museums , collections, etc ) My responce has been, they are beautiful & I also admired the work envolved, BUT I never really thought about the History" of the designs etc. & why the transitions & variences from region to region. What drove it ???

Puffer

[puffer]

A few days ago, I had an occurrence, that vindicated (IMHO) a thought that I feel is one of the MAJOR factors in the discussion we are having.

Before I start, here is the BASIC SUPPOSITION I am operating from.:
Etching is an ART FORM. As such it has various purposes, BUT I am restricting it to the following:
DECORATIVE ( although engraving can enhance the function of the object, such as engraving the hammer spur of a pistol, will improve the the ability to cock the gun. ) here we are looking @ enhancing the appearance of the object.

The occurrence - A few days ago, I traded business cards with a very sheik business Lady ( she wanted me to train her employees in a NRA "Refuse to be a Victim" class. I reached into my wallet & extracted a card from a plastic holder. She reached into her designer purse & extracted a card from a VERY ORNATE ETCHED case. I made a comment & she told me that it actually was an heirloom antique CIGARETTE case.:yesnod:
I did a web search & found that there was a thriving business in cigarette cases (both antique & new ) I also saw that many were being offered as cigarette cases/card holders ( for the PC ??)
here are a few examples, from the simple to the ornate.

missing pic

Why the "resurgence" in the popularity of cigarette cases ?? $$$$$$

THOUGHT
The artists/craftsmen(& women) need to EAT.
Support for the "arts" has been primarily from the wealthy,the well placed, & or the well "healed" They became patrons, &/or clients.Therefore, you produce what they desire.( to show their wealth,power,political mind set,their idea of "beauty (such as a resurgence of Greco/Roman art & architecture)etc. Even throughout the many times of WAR & political upheavel, The ELITE continued (& still do in many cases) to "advertise" the above.

what are your thoughts ???

Puffer

[charles starks]

ya i can see that puffer .
having a heavy engraved item , im sure was seen as a status symbol. Be it a gun , tea pot , or cigarette case , it was kinda a way of saying who you were and a way of getting noticed . Thus when the wealthy faced a decline , the works became more simple

[puffer]

Originally Posted by charles starks

it was kinda a way of saying who you were and a way of getting noticed . Thus when the wealthy faced a decline , the works became more simple

BUT, HAS THE WEALTHY EVER REALLY FACED A DECLINE ??? IMHO - no.

Here is Colt revolver (ca 1862)





Here is a Colt revolver 100 years later(ca.1960s)


Kind of reminds me of those old flintlocks etc.

BTW the engraving was done by Colt (I beieve) & the stocks by Tiffany


If you have a copy of "Steel Canvas" by R.L.Wilson, you will find many more like this PLUS those done for S&W by Tiffanny.



Also in there is a knife that I would swear dates from 1500s except the heavely engraved blade is a "bowie"

Puffer

[lynn_h_adams@yahoo.com]

I guess this early engraving was done when time didn't matter, much like all the hand laid stone walls in Pa. Stone by stone, line by line. This is a luxury of time to do this type of work.

[charles starks]

sorry double post

[charles starks]

Originally Posted by puffer

BUT, HAS THE WEALTHY EVER REALLY FACED A DECLINE ??? IMHO - no.

Here is Colt revolver (ca 1862)





Here is a Colt revolver 100 years later(ca.1960s)


Kind of reminds me of those old flintlocks etc.

BTW the engraving was done by Colt (I beieve) & the stocks by Tiffany


If you have a copy of "Steel Canvas" by R.L.Wilson, you will find many more like this PLUS those done for S&W by Tiffanny.



Also in there is a knife that I would swear dates from 1500s except the heavely engraved blade is a "bowie"

Puffer

nice post puffer .

Has the wealthy ever declined ? Ya I think so . Most certainly a % of that group held on but even then their level of wealth waned in comparison. Most certainly those in the Mega wealth range were lest effected the those of less wealth but still I think they all felt pressures of changing times

with the colt pistol , does anyone else see this as a mix of influences and time frames ?
Could this be considered a transitional type of work , IE part showing the preference of later types of scroll work while still other parts holding on to the heavy relief engraving of an earlier time ?.
What im getting at is up until now we have really seen examples of one or the other types of work .
Yet if we are to support the thought of natural change there should be examples such as this piece which would provide a glimpse into one of either the preference for one type of engraving transitioning to another .
Im thinking we should see a gradual change in application . So surly there would be items showing some of both works then gradually carrying more and more of the preferred work Not a so called light switch change but an evolution from one form to another ..

I would like to also say this . Thank you all for your replies to this topic I think we all have learned a lot , I know I have .
I noticed this morning we are real close to the 2500 views mark for this topic .
So I would like to say this because I think there are a lot of folks reading but maybe afraid to post for any given reason IE maybe lack of experience in this area or maybe they think a question is to basic or something .
I have had some PM on the subject where folks have stated they enjoy the topic but feel its out of their area or knowledge .
To that I want to say . Folks . Knowledge is relative, we all can learn from each other . While its true that the inexperienced can learn from the experienced , the opposite also holds true .
Sometimes as we get deep into our studies of any given subject , we miss the simple things that often , newer folks see but are afraid to comment because they think its already been thought of .

So please don’t be intimidated . Make your post , give your thoughts . If you have or know of some examples, post them . If they are from books , be sure to mention the name of the book and give do credit to the author.. The folks that prepare such documentation no mater how old the print may be , deserve the admiration, respect and credit for their work . Some of the older books folks may not be familiar with such as Dr Links , there are others out there as well im sure on this subject . some very good writings have been sugested here . Knowing about them helps get such works back into circulation and help further our knowledge

you never know you might just be holding something none of us have thought of .

[puffer]

Originally Posted by lynn_h_adams@yahoo.com

I guess this early engraving was done when time didn't matter, much like all the hand laid stone walls in Pa. Stone by stone, line by line. This is a luxury of time to do this type of work.

Lynn, You bring up an interesting point, but I would like to add a "qualifier to the concept of "luxury of time"
I am a "senior citizen":smile5: & one of the things I have observed, much to my concern is a rapid decline of craftsmanship in the trades, especially the home building trade.
Until recently, I owned a home that was built in the mid 1950s.It was not a "custom" built home but one that was built in a small development, for the average middle class consumer.One example of the difference in craftsmanship, is the fit of the molding. In this house, the "inexpensive" mahogany base molding was "coped" for a very tight & precise fit. But today, you will only find this in higher end homes & then you pay for it.

How does this apply to our discussion ?? I feel that it does so in 3 ways
1. $$$$ It takes more time to "cope" a joint, than it does to do a 45 degree cut. Time = $$
2. The diminishing pool of trained personal. Historically, individuals learned their "trade" by being apprentices.( to an individual, guild etc.) In the pre 1800s (or later), an apprentice would start learning the trade as a pre teen.In more modern times, the age became "older" & the "apprenticeship" became a part of Unions. In the last few years we have seen a decline in the union involvement in many of the trades. We have also seen a decline in individuals willing to "apprentice" themselves to individuals to learn a craft.
3. Our American society has become one of "INSTANT GRATIFICATION" We want it NOW!!!!
How many of you, who do custom engraving & have agreed to the $$, but became agitated or even backed out when they were told that it would not be finished for several months or even a year [COLOR="Red"]????[/COLOR

So the ? of "the luxury of time" IE both on the avail. of craftsmen(& women) willing to learn the craft & the client willing to pay & wait.

Puffer

[Gobbler]

I guess this early engraving was done when time didn't matter, much like all the hand laid stone walls in Pa. Stone by stone, line by line. This is a luxury of time to do this type of work.

I agree on this and again I go back to part of my oringinal post

I believe the people are too fast paced to slow down and do fine / detailed work. The world has quantity standards and not longer has quality stadards
this being said in general across the board

// (The lack of time to do a specific job will always show in the end finished product) Do we do bad work today? IMO no. but we do suffer in quality as to what we used to or could have done do to the lack of time forced by a demanding society to move at a faster pace. Just a thought but 25 years ago we really didn't care about the speed of our computer but rather the fact that we had them.
now we cannot survive without the fastest on the market. Aww I'm rambling now. I will say I beleive and it has been proven by many that the talent to do such ornate work is WITHOUT A DOUBT still out there. I also beleive we are begining to see the want by society to see and have that quality again and continue to wait for the scales to tip in that direction again. OK just rambling now but anyway this thread so far has been very interesting and hope it continues along for awhile. Charles, Puffer, Roger, Gravertom, and the others have brought some pictures of great work and info to all of us to share

Thanks

[puffer]

Originally Posted by charles starks

.

Has the wealthy ever declined ? Ya I think so . Most certainly a % of that group held on but even then their level of wealth waned in comparison. Most certainly those in the Mega wealth range were lest effected the those of less wealth but still I think they all felt pressures of changing times

.

IMHO, Yes & NO.
Yes, if you qualify the statement by isolating it to a specific time, location &/or culture.(the "mega" wealthy or for that matter very wealthy, may have lost their wealth or had it decline due to War,politics, natural disasters etc. )

But NO in view of the overall picture. The wealth was still out there & was in the hands a an elite few. It just "changed hands (went from the Aristocrats, royality,etc., to the "merchants"
Example may be in todays modern society. In the western society, the Royalty etc lost it's great wealth ( the last being the Tzars) but at the same time we have the rise of the wealthy "merchant ( the DeBeers, Gettys, Fords & today the Waltons, Gates,Allens etc.) & therefore the type of ways the wealth was "displayed" changed ??? ( example both Gates & Allen, when seen in public are low keyed. But they do own Mansions. Also Allen has demonstrated his wealth by building a "Rock & Roll" Center. )

BTW I live in the Seattle area. This area (King Co. WA ) is rated as the 10th wealthiest county in the USA. (6,800 milionaires & NO I am not one) In fact 2 of the wealthiest 5 individuals in the world live here ( Plus 1 of the wealthiest 20 )

Just a thought

Puffer

[puffer]

In the near future, I will be posting on this thread about the rise & fall of engraving, using Scottish Firearms as my example.

BUT until then here is MY DREAM PISTOL

WHY this GUN ??? -as Chas. & others viewing this thread, who know me, know that I have 2 major areas of research.Guns of the UK ( Brit & Scot - pre 1840 ) & the North West Co./Hudson Bay Co. (NWC/HBC(I not only research it, but also share my knowledge in several venues, incl. schools, historical presentations, the TMA forum etc.)this gun not only is beautiful but brings my to "passions" together






The pictures are from the Royal Museum of Ont. ( by their permission)


The gun was made by Jn. Murdoch of Doune in ca 1800. for William McGillivray (the Chief Director of the NWC ) The engraving on the left grip also has the NWC Arms & on the right grip the NWC crest ( a beaver chewing on a tree ) & the initals, WM

Any one want to make & engrave a copy for me & donate it to me ??:yesnod:

Puffer

[jbullard1]

It appears, to me, that there is a distinct diffrence between the scottish engraving that Puffer posted and the english engraving that Charles posted . Are there any examples of the scottish engraving being done in americia ?
Jerry

[puffer]

Originally Posted by jbullard1

It appears, to me, that there is a distinct diffrence between the scottish engraving that Puffer posted and the english engraving that Charles posted . Are there any examples of the scottish engraving being done in americia ?
Jerry

I am attempting to put together a an overview of the engraving on the Highland Scots firearms & the "uniqueness of the designs.
For NOW let me say this
1. The Highland designs are distinctively different than the British. This is VERY important in view of the fact that the majority of Scots were NOT Highlanders but were primaily Englih.
They did not speak Gaelic. wear kilts etc. And their arms & the decorations on them,were inline wth the British. Plus ALMOST ALL manufacturing was done in the Lowlands.

2. At this time, I have not seen ANY Highland designs made in America. NOTE There are many examples of rhe firearms themselves being here. In fact, one of the earliest surviving examples os a Highland snaphance lock was found in Jamestown,VA (dated ca 1607 )

Puffer

[charles starks]

Looking forward to reading the compressions puffer

This morning I was reading through the comments here and I came across a comment that was made to one of the posts that may not have been fully understood or maybe I was just reading humor but I though it would be a good compression on this subject , basically it’s the difference between Rococo and Baroque forms .
Rococo is very much a base for most carvings of 18th century pieces when it comes to rifles in the Americas, this is in both engravings and carvings . That being said however there are some rifles that show remnants of Baroque .
There also seems to be a difference in this with the art showing and Americanized influence .
To Quote Shumway in this area , this is what he had to say

It is well to bear in mind , however that during the first four decades of the 19th century the Americanized rococo art found on American long rifles under went a gradual Degradation .As the old masters of the 18th century died off, and less well trained students of their lesser well trained students moved westward, the principles of rococo decorations were forgotten and then lost .

Baroque seems to be a very common style of the 17th century up tell about mid to ¾ 18th century .
Baroque has a lot of bilateral symmetry especially in its more evolved forms .
Rococo on the other hand seems to avoid symmetry and emphasizes informality . Basically more like whats seen in nature with leaves , vines , shells , flowers , opening leaves

Shumway again had this to say about the change .

representations of the acanthus leaf foliage, was very popular in the Baroque period , were it carried over into the rococo period .Good Rococo art is rhythmic and causes the eye to move easily from one part to another with out discontinuity .The C scrolls and S scrolls have a wave like appearance, and some applications can be thought as a representation of ocean waves .

[Daniel Houwer]

Wauw, Charles!

What an interesting post!!!. Have not had the time to read through all of them, but I love the old design's! Especialy like the flintlock stuff!

Daniel

[jbullard1]

Can someone explain a "Highland snaphance lock" I dont know very much about early firearms. To me it looks like an early attempt at a flintlock

[puffer]

Originally Posted by jbullard1

Can someone explain a "Highland snaphance lock" I dont know very much about early firearms. To me it looks like an early attempt at a flintlock

Basicly YOU"VE GOT IT

If you want more detailed info PM me or go to this site

http://www.traditionalmuzzleloadinga...pic.php?t=7561

Puffer

[charles starks]

puffer , did you come up with any comparissions ?

[jbullard1]

Do you have any examples of engravings from this time period that tell of an adventure or story on multiple sections/areas or weapons

[puffer]

Originally Posted by jbullard1

Do you have any examples of engravings from this time period that tell of an adventure or story on multiple sections/areas or weapons

Who is this ?? addressed to???

What time period Etc, ??

BTW Check your PM box


Puffer

[charles starks]

puffer , i think any time period would work .. you have any loaded up so as to post here ?

the answer jbullard1, i dont know of a story but many of the gun engravings depict different acts , IE hunting with dogs , water fowl hunting. animals and such .
you also see alot of this in today’s works .

Now as far as engraving goes itself , we have to remember that books , newspapers , and a lot of the artworks were done from engravings and then stamped so as stories , I would say yes , many of these type engravings do tell stories , or depictions.
i believe this is also why they are stilled called engravings and not paintings or drawings .
here is one you might enjoy

The Boucher engraving depicts a French pastorale scence from the 18th century.

[puffer]

Originally Posted by charles starks

puffer , i think any time period would work .. you have any loaded up so as to post here ?

the answer jbullard1, i dont know of a story but many of the gun engravings depict different acts , IE hunting with dogs , water fowl hunting. animals and such .
you also see alot of this in today’s works .

Now as far as engraving goes itself , we have to remember that books , newspapers , and a lot of the artworks were done from engravings and then stamped so as stories , I would say yes , many of these type engravings do tell stories , or depictions.
i believe this is also why they are stilled called engravings and not paintings or drawings .
here is one you might enjoy

The Boucher engraving depicts a French pastorale scence from the 18th century.

Chas. I will have to do some "file" searching.

BUT this is a GREAT thought. I would think that it would be prevalent in "presentation" guns, esp. military ( it is very so on presentation swords)

Puffer

[puffer]

For the EYE, here is a 1550+, wheellock, from the NRA Museum





Enjoy

Puffer

[puffer]

Here is a 1650 DUTCH Wheelock pistol.


I thought that you might not only enjoy looking @ it, but it has some decorating features that I find interesting. PLEASE comment . I would like know your thoughts

The stock is Ebony

There are 2 distinct types of decoration on this gun.

1. Decoration on the steel parts.
A. it appears to me to be not as "fine" ( or "cruder") as the other "steel" engravings i have looked at Is the "COARSENESS" do to the "heavy" design or to the engraver ???




2. The silver work.
A. This tome seems to be a combination of engraving & inlay work ???
B. this also seems to be not as "fine" ???





Thank you

Puffer

[jbullard1]

What are the larger inlay pieces made of?
They appear to me to be a heavier/courser engraving style but real beauties never the less

[charles starks]

WOW puffer , nice post , very different then what we see today .
currently im working on a rifle for a customer who wants the decorations to be of Celtic designs .
As such I began by studying the BOOK of KELLS and the Book of Celtic art
Suddenly what I found myself in was a completely different layout of scrolls .lettering , Knott work and such .
Understandably 1000 X more intricate then anything we have posted or I think seen and also a style I don’t think we ? At least I have seen used much on firearms .
This leads me to an even greater belief in completely different separations of styles between different countries

Ill see if I can find a better photo of a early Tara brooch
But in the main time this will have to do .
This form when seen , doesn’t appear to have changed all the much . Is that because of the culture I wonder or is it becouse of a modern resergance into the Celtic arts ?

[Big-Un]

IMO the "crude" work on the above piece seems to have been done by a different person (apprentice?), evidenced by the fine design and execution of the rosette and the lettering surrounding it. The pig is intruding on the lettering, which I assume (and we all know what that means!) the master would not do. This seems to me to have been done by two people, and maybe the ornamentation was not done at the same time; possibly years apart?

[puffer]

Originally Posted by Big-Un

IMO the "crude" work on the above piece seems to have been done by a different person (apprentice?), evidenced by the fine design and execution of the rosette and the lettering surrounding it. The pig is intruding on the lettering, which I assume (and we all know what that means!) the master would not do. This seems to me to have been done by two people, and maybe the ornamentation was not done at the same time; possibly years apart?

Some great insites. Now that you mention it, I agree, that silver work was not doneame prson. I also agree that it looks like a master & ???
I have a hard time imagining a master alowing an apprentice to "cobble up" his work this way. Your thoughts of 2 time periods would fit, Iimho

Puffer

[charles starks]

Originally Posted by Big-Un

IMO the "crude" work on the above piece seems to have been done by a different person (apprentice?), evidenced by the fine design and execution of the rosette and the lettering surrounding it. The pig is intruding on the lettering, which I assume (and we all know what that means!) the master would not do. This seems to me to have been done by two people, and maybe the ornamentation was not done at the same time; possibly years apart?

you could very well be right , that section as well as t maybe the off sideplate side doesnt really match the rest of the work in quality or in theam style does it .
MMM very good points

[puffer]

Chas, You use the term "CELTIC & since you also refer to the "book of Kells",
I"ASSUME" you are referring to the IRISH not the Highland Scots. Because, their art forms do differ. I feel that we must ABANDON looking @ "weapons" for "Celtic" designs.

Search as I may, I could find NO "Celtic art work on Irish weapons ( Note- there may be some, but I have yet to find them.)
Here is an Irish dagger (note- this dagger, as well as the Irish swords, are influenced by the Vikings -- more in the following post )

I did find a "Celtic" designs in the Highland weapons though.
1. Swords + NONE
2. Guns + an occational "thistle"
3. Daggers/Dirks + NONE until the LATE 1600s, when the "Celtic Knot statrted to be added to the handle, & became traditional"
Picc #1-#3 Pre late 1600s, except one



Pic #4 is a color pic of actual museum Scotish Daggers prior to the Late 1600s

So were does that leave us ?? See my next post. :seeya:

Puffer

[puffer]

[quote=charles starks] This leads me to an even greater belief in completely different separations of styles between different countries
QUOTE]
Chas., IMHO, I agree, but I feel that while each country, had it's different styles" they were ADAPTATIONS of other countries influences.

I feel that the "UK" gives us a very good "periscope" into this line of reasoning.

In the "UK" we have basically 4 distinct countries/cultures. - Welsh, Irish, Highland Scot & British/Lowland Scot. For now I will not discuss the Welsh ( my sainted Welsh Grandmother, I hope will forgive me )
!. The British/Lowland Scot was primarily influenced by the French ( later by the Germans when they had a German King )
2. The Highland Scot, was influenced, by the Irish, Vikings, Etc, But developed their VERY OWN art style (clothing, Jewelry, weapons, even the Highland Scottish Bagpipe is their own adaptation. More later in another post :yesnod: )
3. The Irish., were most heavily influenced by the Vikings. ( weapons {swords & Daggers} & jewelry.
Here I am stepping out of my area of expertise ( as if I had one TWO of the most common "Irish Celtic" motifs are the thistle & the "Knot. But here are some examples of jewelry, I feel at least add weight to my statement.
This pic is of a Viking broach ( 9th-10th centry) - Thistle motif. The original was found in Sweden , but was common in Viking jewelry.

This pic is also of a Viking broach ( 8th-12th centry) "Knot" motif & the original was found in russia.Again a very common Viking motif

Here are 2 Irish Broaches dating from about the same time ( note these are accurate copies of originals)




Your thoughts ???

Puffer

[Barry Lee Hands]

The Boucher engraving is in fact an etching.
Etchings are often refered to as engravings.

[charles starks]

well i can tell you the engravings in these paterns are not simple in any way . the size also of these items are very small making the engraving I would think even a greater challabe for the time period

The Boucher engraving is in fact an etching.
Etchings are often refered to as engravings.

were not some even burns of a sorts . I seem to recall reading of an very early type of photograph that was also called an engraving but used a light source in a way to burn the plate .
but your point is well taken

[Danny C]

Seems like everyone liked this thread - even though other threads were "technically" more attractive.

[Mcahron]

Got my vote.Cool thread

[puffer]

I have been attempting to get my thoughts & info together, to address the ?? of the developement & the maintaining of the art of engraving in a culture. As you have noticed, I have been posting examples of "Scottish Highland" works, primarily, guns. There is a reason. I hope this weekend I will be able to but some of it together for your comments.

I will be concintrating mainly on the engraving on the "Scottish Highland Steel" pistol
Here are a couple of pictures


missing pics

Puffer

[Roger Bleile]

Returning to the original premise of this thread, I must recommend THE ART OF GUN ENGRAVING by Claude Gaier and Pietro Sabatti, Knickerbocker Press, 1999, ISBN: 1-57715-087-2. This book, for those who have or can get it, will answer most of the questions posed here on the styles and evolution of gun decoration from the matchlock to the present. I was tempted to post quotes from this wonderful book as this thread progressed but decided that I would end up trying to quote 70% of the book. For those truely interested in the history and evolution of arms decoration I can not recommend this book too highly. Also included are detailed pictures of work by some of the best contemporary artists including Alain Lovenberg and Phil Coggen.

Roger

[charles starks]

Originally Posted by Roger Bleile

Returning to the original premise of this thread, I must recommend THE ART OF GUN ENGRAVING by Claude Gaier and Pietro Sabatti, Knickerbocker Press, 1999, ISBN: 1-57715-087-2. This book, for those who have or can get it, will answer most of the questions posed here on the styles and evolution of gun decoration from the matchlock to the present. I was tempted to post quotes from this wonderful book as this thread progressed but decided that I would end up trying to quote 70% of the book. For those truely interested in the history and evolution of arms decoration I can not recommend this book too highly. Also included are detailed pictures of work by some of the best contemporary artists including Alain Lovenberg and Phil Coggen.

Roger

roger is correct , its a very good book and i also have it as part of my research into the weapons and their development .the original premise of this thread was to discuss and show the changes in the different styles of engraving on everything from weapons to household items , how it change , why it changed , as well as the differences we see in compressions of today’s works .
I think this also facilitates a better understanding of our past and the social changes that occurred and how those changes related to the art itself . By doing such I think we also see how much this style of art changed from region to region

[rod]

Puffer,

Thank you for a very interesting overview!

What are your thoughts on the distinctive design of the Highland pistol with its unprotected trigger? Were these made only in Doone and Inverness?

Have you any very close-up pictures of the Tara Broach? We know that it is small, and I have studied it from outside its glass case in Dublin, but the best photos I have in books do not do justice to the detail , especilally the wound gold wire ornamentation.

best

Rod

[puffer]

Originally Posted by rod

Puffer,

Thank you for a very interesting overview!

What are your thoughts on the distinctive design of the Highland pistol with its unprotected trigger? Were these made only in Doone and Inverness?

best

Rod

Rod, There are several theories on this. Some feel that it was addopted so that it could be fired from the "targe" hand, while holding the "targe". Others feel that wae because it was "quicker" to fire, when "snatched from the belt, bardic, or shoulder strap. Maybe both & then some. No, Although Doune & the surronding area is best known for this style pistol, Edenbourgh, Glascow & even Birmingham England ( later on) Yet the "unprotected" trigger remained ( even on the "cheap Gov. issue (1766-1788 Note this is the only one that had NO Engraving )

This "style of pistol occupies a unique position in the history of pistols for many reasons,( including the "art" of engraving.) I will touch on some of these, when I do my post.

[Gobbler]

I have to say this is a great thread // I have been reading so much that I haven't even had time to give any input // you guys have some really good info

Puffer you may have said earlier and I missed it but Do you see a perticular style of engraving on the Scottish pistols and do you see
any unique changes over a certain time frame

Thanks