Air Graver for wood?

[Jim Kelso]

I've been asked by several people if the Air Graver is suitable for wood. My response has been something like, "Yes, in the right context". I haven't used it myself for wood but am wondering if any of you have, and what your experience was like. Thanks

[Steve Lindsay]

Hi Jim,
The tools have worked for me when trying wood carving using a home-made wood chisel. I haven't looked very hard yet for a source for some small wood chisels to fit in the nose of the tool. There was a person about a year or so ago who bought an airgraver for carving wood. We emailed back and forth while he was looking for small wood chisels. He did find some and he sent a link. I should have bookmarked it because now I can't find the link or that email from him. The wood carving field is another area where the AirGraver can work, but I have not looked into it extensively.
Steve

[GSCarson1]

Steve,

I think I may possibly be the fellow you were referring to regarding the use of your tool for wood. I sent you some info on various palm chisels that I have modified for use with the tool back when I bought mine, and had checked with you to see what your experience had been then or is you had any tools available. I mainly use my Classic for engraving brass and bronze banjo and mandolin parts, but have used it occasionally for some smaller wood carving, such as banjo heels, knife cases, hand made net handles, and other stuff I've done carving on. I just signed up for the forum today and saw this message. I have ground down a variety of tools to use in the handle, including various palm chisel veiners. It is an area that I want to experiment a lot more with. I haven't found the perfect tool or sharpening angle yet for the veiners. The main thing I've used it for is to do a quick outline of banjo heel carvings. On certain projects and harders woods such as rock maple and ebony, it's worked well.

Glenn Carson
Pennsylvania

[Steve Lindsay]

Hi Glenn, You were who I was thinking of!
I'm glad you found this thread and chimed in. Thanks for the help.
Do you have pictures on your harddrive that would be easy to post?
Thanks again, Steve

[Jim Kelso]

Thanks guys. Photos would be nice.

[Dave London]

Jim
Ngraver has sets of wood chisels that look like they will work in the airgraver may have to grind them down a little www.ngraver.com Dave

[Steve Lindsay]

Ray Phillips at Ngraver also makes the best liners that will fit in the AirGraver. He explained how he made them and it really is slick. They come out right on the button. I didn't know he had wood chisels too.

Steve

[GSCarson1]

Jim/Steve,

I'll take a few shots of some of the chisels I have modified for use with the Classic this weekend. The three main names that I can remember offhand are the Pfeil palm chisels, Micro brand (both through Woodcraft or similar), and the Dembart palm veiner sold by Brownells for checkering. This is one of my all time favorite tools for fast outlining of small shallow relief wood carvings. It has a slight sweep, short shaft, and is very controllable.

I have a few sample photos which I'll try to insert until I take the tool photos which show some shallow relief carvings of the type I have experimented with. The main woodcarving application I have played with the Classic is to zip around the outline of the banjo heel carving pattern. One of the photos shows one side of a neck where you can see the shallow first outlining cuts, and this is what I am referring to. The main problem I've had with small veiners is the sharpening of the tip, and when adding power it can sometimes create more problems (or at least show you the quality of the tool). Just like engraving metal, you need to have it sharpened for the purpose (plus I've found that you can damage the tips of some of these if you push it to hard). When it is set up right, the Lindsay tool really helps it glide through some pretty tough maple and ebony very nicely. I especially like it's short length, as I like to cut my wood carving tools down very short for this application too.

Regards,

Glenn Carson

[Jim Kelso]

Wow Glenn. Those are some stunning heel carvings. Thanks for contributing. Can't wait to see the tools. Have you seen our carving forum? You can see it here:http://thecarvingpath.com

Are the others besides the Whyte Ladye historical patterns?

Are you doing the pearl inlay and engraving? With the Air Graver?

[Steve Lindsay]

Glenn, Thanks for posting those pictures. Beautiful work, layouts, sculpture...everything. Jim Kelso does super beautiful sculpturing too. Ron Skaggs is another engraver that very good at sculpturing.
Steve

[GSCarson1]

Thanks guys,
I appreciate the comments, positive or otherwise coming from the likes of you'all. I was thinking about how much I would have given for something like this back in the early 70's when I was trying to figure out how to engrave, carve and inlay pretty much in a vacuum. It really is neat to be able to bounce things off other folks that are into the same thing.

I appreciate the tip on the Ngraver wood tools, I will check them out for sure. To date, I have mainly used Steve's tool for doing the quick first outline of the heel patterns, it worked very well. I intend to experiment with it much more but due to work (I have been traveling each week for four years to an out of state project site), I only have an opportunity to engrave or use the tool on the weekends. Just about all of my most carving and pearl engraving has been done in my Hampden/Holiday Inn room "workshop" in the evenings for that reason. Pretty sad state of affairs for doing this kind of stuff, and I am ready for that to change soon. I've mainly been using the Classic to engrave brass and bronze banjo and mandolin parts, it has worked absolutely great for me. I would appreciate any tips from others who may have experimented with various grinds and/or angles for engraving brass and pearl in particular.

I'll post the tool photos later. Oh yeah, the banjo patterns in the photos are mostly Vega/Fairbanks (#7,#9, Deluxe), the middle pattern one in the photo with three is one of mine. The last two shots of the fly rod handle and violin tailpiece are actually quite a it larger than life, these weren't done with the Lindsay tool but would be the type of thing I would feel comfortable tackling with it and believe it would be really good for.
Best,
Glenn Carson

[Ray Cover]

Glen,

As a banjo lover and an artisan I got to tell you I really perked up when I saw your pics.

Nice stuff.

Ray Cover

[GSCarson1]

Thanks Ray, I've seen some of your work while looking for engraving info and its awesome. I've attached a photo of a few of my palm tools next to the Lindsay tool for scale. Shown are one of the standard Pfeil tools and another tip off one ground to fit the Classic. There are also some Micro chisels which have round shafts. All you need to do with these is pull the chisel out of the handle and clamp it into Steve's tool with the allen set screw. There are also two of the Dembart checkering veiners shown along with some other mini tools I've scrounged up. I also posted a couple banjo pearl engraving shots (sorry its off topic), and would be interested in others experience with the tool for this kind of pearl work. It's nowhere near as fine as what you knife guys do, but for this purpose I try to make it usable as it'll get a lot of finger contact and wear. Jim Kelso, I checked the site out and saw some of your work too, really nice!

Glenn Carson





http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j3...s/000_0030.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j3...s/000_0033.jpg

[Jim Kelso]

Thanks Glenn. I hope you'll consider joining us there too and introducing yourself. The DemBart veiners are nice little tools.

[Janel]

Beautiful work on this thread. Steve, congratulations on this very nice forum! I hope that it brings you pleasure, and your members more good information than they could imagine they need.

I am a carver of very small sculptures from hard woods. Reading the posts on this thread are answering some of the questions I had about using the Lindsay engraver for use with wood. I see that with the right cutters, very nice work can be done with it. I feel a case of the iwannaone beginning . What good material for day dreaming before the case becomes serious!

You are welcome to visit my web site here to see what it is that I do. Jim Kelso and I are part of The Carving Path forum mentioned on the previous page.

Thank you Steve for creating this forum.

Janel

[Steve Lindsay]

Welcome Janel, Some time ago I found your website through the carving forum. What you are doing with the carving is beautiful and amazing! I'd recommend everyone visit Janel's site and see her carvings.

Janel, I'm going to include a picture here on the forum that is from your site. I hope it is ok I do this.


This is one of her pieces but do visit her achieves and see them all with descriptions. Steve

[Janel]

(Blushing smiley!) Thanks Steve! The Archives has pretty near all the work done since I switched to wood as a carving material. I have some updating to do for the most recent work though. You can take a linear tour through the thumbnails or go one step further and use the "next" arrow to see each page.

I look forward to reading posts in this forum.

Janel

[G. Dee Milligan]

Janel, I am completely stunned after viewing your web site. I'm a huge fan now. Completely awesome!!!
GDee

[Ray Cover]

Janel,

I love your free standing work. Have you considered applying your talents as a decorative art on objects like handmade knives or even hand made archery bows?

I can just imagine leaves and frogs on the ebony riser of a nice hand crafted recurve.

Ray

[Ray Cover]

Janel,

I have been looking closer and I have a question.

I was looking at the process pics of your frog and lilly above. I notice that in one pic you are punching divots with a hammer and punch and making the "bumps" concave. Then in the next pic they are convex raised bumps. How did you make that work?

Ray

[GSCarson1]

Janel,

Absolutely beautiful work! I really enjoyed looking at your web site, it's very inspiring. I live on a stream and have some turtle photos that I've been stewing over how to incorporate into a banjo project sometime soon (I did an inlaid trout theme banjo a couple years ago and it was one of my favorite banjo projects.) Thanks very much for sharing your talents.

Glenn Carson

[Jim Kelso]

Originally Posted by GSCarson1

Janel,
(I did an inlaid trout theme banjo a couple years ago and it was one of my favorite banjo projects.)

Glenn Carson

Glenn, do you have any photos of the trout banjo we can see?

[Janel]

Thanks very much. No, I have not yet considered seriously working on knife handles or other additions to larger projects in collaboration with other's work. It could be interesting though.

The bump texture is called ukibori, in Japanese. A quick description of the technique: The wood used in the piece you viewed is carved from boxwood. The subject is carved to nearly the degree of finishing, with just a little extra depth. That surface is finish sanded. A metal punch, formed as you wish it to be formed, is set on the surface of the wood and rapped with a small hammer. It may be done by hand as well, but would be tiring with many repetitions. Once the compressions are all in place, shave and sand the surface down to the low part of the compressions with the finish sanding grit paper. Apply hot water and watch the wood expand into the bumps. Magic! Let the wood dry and do a light sanding of a higher number (I think that with this wood sanded from 400 to 600 wet dry paper is adequate). Magic! From there I add more textures and carry on with completing other details. Thanks for asking.

Janel

[Ray Cover]

Thanks Janel! That's a real neat trick. You have inspired me to do some carving on one of the fly rods I am building. I make my own handle and reel seat components and of course engrave them. I think having some 3-D mayflies crawling around on the wood will be real eye catcher.

Ray

[Janel]

Ja, the mayflies would be a very nice addition!

How do you think using a Lindsay engraver would work for some of the sculpting that I do? Has anyone posted images of work that is more 3D than relief work?

[Steve Ellsworth]

airgraver works fine for 3d work
I cut coins close to 3d and they are less forgiving than wood.

you can throw any tool into the Airgraver providing you grind down the tang to fit

with a torch and a hammer you can form any shape of gouge or silver solder cut down tools to rod or sq stock to fit the nose piece.

You can go as small as you want using reground dental tools - its a good source of small carbide.

i would recommend trying the carbalt stock to make shavers as it holds an edge like nothing else. Mine were sharpened several years ago....

dawns on me one could take the carbalt gravers and snap them to width, solder them to another piece to make a t shaped graver and shape it as a chisel.

curious - do you know my old partner Bill Shotts he was pretty good with the Netsuke.

Can you please tell me where you found those specs you are wearing in your picture and a bit about them - i be needing such a gadget!!!!

[Janel]

Thanks for the info. The binocular loupes were used by my uncle David when he practiced dentistry in the 1950's. After some years, I acquired them and find them to be indispensable. Used together with a special pair of carving lenses, they provide between 8.5 to 10 x magnification. Perfect. My carving glasses are seamless bifocals with a stronger prescription aimed at focusing about 10-12" from my face for carving, the upper area is best at about arm's length, for tools and bench top sightings. I can look over or under the loupes with the carving glasses, sort of like the loupes are a trifocal, but smack dab in the middle of the glasses. I do not know if they are replaceable.

[Steve Ellsworth]

Well i think you better have them insured
i dont hink theyare replaceable or even to be found anywhere on the market in that magnification range
consider yourslef very lucky to have such a wonderfull pair of specs
bet hey would cost a small fortune to replicate

[GSCarson1]

Janel,

I agree with Steve that the tool should work very well for fine 3D carving work (wood or metal). Although I don't really have any photos of anything other than some shallow relief carving, I have experimented with the tool enough to feel comfortable that that statement. I know it has a lot of potential in this area. I have made one tool using carbalt and it will probably last forever.

I have been traveling extensively and working out of state on a large project for the past four years and just haven't had much time to experiment with my Classic tool. Most of my carving on banjo necks during this period has been done in hotel rooms. I've modified a few palm chisels, veiners and small gouges for use with the tool and they really work very nicely. It has been a frustration to me not to be able to use it more. Most of my use with it has been on brass and bronze banjo and mandolin parts on the weekends. I intend to do a lot more with it in for carving including making a number of specialized tools and scrapers, etc. I also think it might be great using knives and small flat chisels to clear areas away. If I have more time to fool with it in this area I'll post again with how it's working.

(Jim Kelso - Sorry, I don't have any photos of the Trout banjo handy, but I'll try to dig some up. Most of the trout theme is done with engraved pearl inlays on the fingerboard. It's fitted with a 1929 Vega 11 13/16" Tubaphone tone ring and my banjo buddies have nick named it "The Troutaphone"....)

Best,
Glenn C.

[Wayne]

Hi Janel,
I was showing my friend your work and he asked me to find out where you get your boxwood from?
Very excellant work. Thank you for sharing it.
wayne

[Janel]

I get boxwood from various sources. Some from friends as "scraps", from trash to treasure, right? There are hardwood dealers that carry it, but the worldwide sources all vary. I don't like to redirect you from this forum, but since we have discussed it on The Carving Path I will do so since talking about wood is less on topic than the engraving tools focus here (sorry SE). If you would like to do some research, use the SEARCH function and see where it takes you, otherwise the Tool and Materials topics would be the most likely place to browse through.

[banjo_art]

Glen:
I am a banjo player and builder for 38 years. I do some engraving on the metal parts and always wanted to try some heel carving with my Classic. Could you tell me where to find the Vega or AC Fairbanks patterns?
Thanks
--Art

[GSCarson1]

Hi Art,

Just noticed your post. You can get a Vega/Faribanks pattern booklet from First Quality Music

First Quality Music, P.O. Box 581038, Louisville, KY 40268

800-635-2021

http://www.fqms.com/Vega_Pattern_Set_P12660.cfm

ID #: P231C
PRICE: $10.50

I have collected a large number of photos of original heel carvings and can assist with some of those if you get stuck. Ebay, Bernunzio, Gruhn, Frets, etc are some sites that you can find good close ups of original carvings.

If you get stuck, email me. Also, if you have joined the Yahoo banjo makers
site I think I still have some carving and engraving photos there including some that show how I do mine. I lay them out by hand on the heel using a soft pencil. If I am reproducing something original I draw it on one side while referring to photos. Then I do the second side using the side that is drawn for reference. I usually just hold the pencil in my fingers and lock it in place to make reference marks to the outside of the larger scroll sections and transfer them to the other side. When you do this from the fingerboard, heel and bottom of the neck, you end up with three reference points. It is very fast and also accurate. You end up with horizontal and vertical pencil lines that make it easy to exactly duplicate the scrolls and carving that you drew on the first side.

Love to see what you are doing sometime too.

Regards,

Glenn C.

[banjo_art]

Thanks Glenn, I'll check out FQMS. I havn't joined the Yahoo banjo makers but I may take a look. Sometimes I spend more time than I should on the computer and not enough in the shop cutting metal.
--Art

[monk]

years ago i soldered several different xacto type carving blades to .125" brass shafts. these served rather nicely with the gravermeister for doing walnut. i never carved anything harder than the walnut.

[MJ Hofbauer]

I know this is a bit of an old topic, but figured it was worth mentioning if no one had seen them. Flexcut makes a large line of reciprocating chisels. They seem like with modification to the shaft they'd be great for use with an AirGraver. I don't own either, so I can't say for sure, just thought I'd bring it to everyones attention. http://www.flexcut.com/


I've been lurking in the forum as a guest for the past couple months, just noticed this thread when it resurfaced. I'm just getting started with engraving, even though right now. I have found Steve's forum and tutorials invaluable.

The work-along post was great, hope you continue them. I'm pretty stuck for the time being with practicing solo, so having some decent references is really great. I'm sorry, but no book, or basic picture online gives a beginner must idea of depth of cuts/etc. Seeing so many in-progress and tips on one practice plate helps fill those gaps.

Thanks -MJ

[Steve Lindsay]

Welcome MJ, The flexcut chisels do look like they may fit with modification. And thank you... Glad the forum and tutorials have helped

Steve

[Danny C]

GRS has wood carving chisels for their graver handles - wouldn't they fit into Steve's? (maybe a bit of grinding on the tang?)

[monk]

yall otta be carefull, i think those guys could cause warts if you got too close ! they look real !

[monk]

years ago i simply used low temp solder to attach short steel or brass rods to xacto carving blades. the kind you insert in the handles. i chucked these in a gravermeister and used them quite nicely on walnut . i made a small water tank to immerse the foreward end of the blades so as to not ruin the temper. no reason this wouldn't work with a lindsay, assuming you could live with the xacto type blades.

[Dale]

Well looks like I was a little too late to see your photos of the wood carving with the airgraver.

When I click on your link for photo bucket they are no longer there.

Sure would love to see what carving you have done, as I as well am interested in trying it as a carving instrument as well.

I am wondering if there is a way to carve soft metal like you would carve wood with the graver.

I am thinking about carving brass, and copper, specifically designing my own watch cases for vintage watch movements.

Dale

[Dave London]

Dale
Yes you can carve metals similar to the way you would cut wood. Just sharp gravers

[Yves]

Look for some of the micro wood chisles on sites like

wood workers supply at www.woodworker.com
or www.woodcraft.com

Some of the small chisles are called Dockyard