Scroll drawing practice

[SpiderCurt]

Hi All

The "you can't cut what you can't draw" statement someone made stuck in my mind. As a result, I have been practicing drawing scrolls and have finally gotten to the point where they actually look like leaves to me. Thought I would post one of my scribbles, a combination of what I've learned from the books of Ron Smith, James Meeks and the old books from Google with the hopes of getting some pointers.



Thanks in advance.

[SVD]

Not bad! :thumbsup:

I've been printing off a lot of pictures from the forums lately of other people's leaves. I have one leaf I can draw fairly well but want to expand.

Don't forget to cut a design every now and then - there are things that cutting a design will teach you that nothing else will.

[WVEngraver]

Curt,

You gotta fix the backbone of the scroll. It needs to be a smooth, progressively winding spiral. No sharp corners or quick turns.

Before cutting this on metal ... work out the drawing until it is right. If you have difficulty with drawing symmetry as I do. Draw one side then scan it in, copy, mirror the copied image then attach to the original.

I'm struggling with this right now for a set of knife bolsters I need to cut ...

Chris

[SpiderCurt]

Thanks for the input guys.

Steve: Thanks for the compliment, though I don't think it is really deserved. I have been cutting too, but haven't taken pictures of anything yet. That was another tip I picked up, practice both drawing and cutting so that your skill with each stays at about the same level. I also study the work of others but I practice drawing without any examples in front of me. Hopefully, this will enable me to design scrolls that while they may be influenced by others but aren't exact copies.

Chris: If you think these backbones are lumpy, you ought to see what happens to a good smooth spiral when I try the zig-zag cut like you used on the bracelet! :smilie5:
This particular scribble started out as a single scroll and I just kept adding stuff to try out leaf structures and what not. I even dabbled with shading here and there. I can't tell from your work that you are struggling with anything.

Thanks again to both of you.

[WVEngraver]

Hi Curt,

Wasn't trying to seem overly critical or harsh in my post ... but since you asked, I gotta give an honest critique. It's the only way we can help each other improve out here in cyberspace.

I can't begin to tell you how hard it is for me to draw. I see guys whip something up in half an hour which will take me all day to get right. One day I'll take a picture of the pile of crumpled up drawing paper and tracing paper on the floor next to my desk and post it.

Cutting is the easy part. It's the ability to put what is in our heads to paper that most of us regular guys struggle with.

The 10-50-40 rule .... that's 10% cutting, 50% drawing and 40% trying to figure out how to make money at it. At least that is the way it is with me.

I draw the same way Curt. I'll start with one or two scrolls and keep adding to it. As I see areas where I can add some complexity, I redraw. Bringing forward what I like to a new sheet of tracing paper. I've got four sheets of tracing paper and one sheet of drawing paper full of doodles for this set of bolsters. Thank God the other side is just a mirror image of the artwork I've done so far. I gotta tell ya ... there seems to be nothing harder to fill with engraving that is "interesting" then a square or rectangle.

Maybe, if I have time this week, I'll start a thread in the engraving forum section that takes it from conception to completion. I do very little with the computer. That's odd for me since I spent over 15 years in systems engineering & admin.

Chris

[SpiderCurt]

Hi Chris

I didn't view your critique as overly critical or harsh and hope my reply didn't give you that impression. I thought you were pretty easy on me. From all the posts I've read of yours, I have come to expect you to tell it just like you see it.

The way I see it is only one of the four spirals is even close to smooth and one out of four isn't good. Then there is leaf spacing and size consistency etc. Told you that you were easy on me.

I don't find it odd that someone that worked in the computer industry doesn't do much with computers. My sister is a programmer and I can't even get her to answer my e-mails without having to call her and tell her to turn the thing on every now and then. It is different for me, as a self employed un-hacker, I rarely do the same thing every day.

I hope you find time to do the conception to completion thread. I find them enjoyable and very helpful.

Thanks again for taking the time to help.

[SVD]

One tip that I got from Lee Griffiths in a class: spirals coming off of spirals should be like freeway ramps - smooth transitions rather than corners. If, when you trace the line you can go either way and have it look like it's the original line then you did the transition correctly.

[SpiderCurt]

Thanks Steve

I hadn't seen that tip before and will certainly keep it in mind from now on.

[Daniel Houwer]

Hi Curt,

I like to contain my excerxises within a confinded space such as bolsters or other things to engrave on. I like yours very much although it has no confined form yet. Just a little though. It swings around a bit. (jazzy?)
I think this would do very well if symetrical on a sword guard or something broad like that.
I love the center piece and the right scroll next to it. :yesnod:
I am working on some designs myself right now but not sure if I should post them. Seeing yours I think seeing someone at the same level of design I should just post them. Maybe I will dare to do so

Thanks Curt!

Daniel

[WVEngraver]

Hi Curt .... no ... I didn't read it like that. It's all good.


You are right in your assessment. All of them need to be redrawn ... and as Steve suggests, their connect points need to be smooth. Next, we gotta work on the leaves. There's a great section in Ron Smith's book that illustrates the components of a leaf.

I've developed some "habits" from James Meek's book which I am finding hard to break as I am trying to take my scroll to the Ron Smith level.

I'll post a photo of a Chris DeCamilis scroll he did for my beginner class in '05. It has helped me immensely to break some of the limiting habits of basic tendril and leaf scroll.

Also, don't be concerned with trying to fill an area. Just draw and let your mind flow and pencil move. It's a good suggestion that Daniel has for supplemental drawing practice and challenge excercises.

Catch ya later,

Chris

[Vanknife]

Good day Curt,
I bought both the books written by Mr. Ron Smith worth every penny and more, this is what I have done with the first basic drawings in his first book. I photocopied the pages and try to re draw all the leaves and scrolls line for line to try and see where it originates from, where it is going to end and off course what is the effect of the line.

Here is a sample of one such page I have done.The top and middle drawings is the originals the others i have re drawn.

I wish I had more time on hands to do more drawing and engraving, luckily I have a good paying day job interfering with my engraving.

Cheers

"VAN"

[SpiderCurt]

Hi Gang

Thank you all so much!

Daniel, I would love to see your design work. I too was hesitant about posting designs until it occurred to me that it is similar to turning in homework in school. However embarrassed I may be, posting my work here will give me the best assessment of any progress or lack thereof that I make. Your suggestion to learn to design for a specific area may make learning to design scrolls a bit harder but I can see will be beneficial in the long run. What good is a perfect scroll if it doesn't look good where it is cut? Is that an accurate restatement of your suggestion or did I miss the point altogether?

Chris, I have Ron Smith's Understanding Scroll Design book. Maybe having it in front of me with that section open will help and for the time being forget about originality. I'll have to figure out how to keep my daughter from running off with it
Outside a classroom environment, you have to learn from any and every source you can find. That in my opinion, makes the term "self taught" inaccurate. So, any and all help is appreciated, including the Chris DeCamilis scroll you mentioned. It has only been a short time since I became involved with engraving, making my collection of examples to study very limited. Much of what I have gathered for study, including some of your posted pictures, is too advanced for my level. As Clint once said "A man has to know his limitations".

Van, good day to you too. As this is the first time we have communicated directly, let me say it is good to meet you.
As I mentioned, I have one of Ron Smith's books. I plan to purchase the other just as soon as I have recovered somewhat from the dreaded fundsarelow disease Prior to posting this reply, I checked to see if I had saved any of your posts for study. The bowie knife guard you posted may well have been the underlying inspiration behind the design I posted. While no one is ever going to confuse the two designs, I do want to say up front that this was not an attempt to copy your work. I know from posts on the forum, that engravers do not like to have their work copied and rightly so. So please forgive the unintentional similarities.

Thanks again your help is greatly appreciated by this novice!

[WVEngraver]

Hi Curt,

That's a good book. I like his advanced book better though.

I have to disagree about the "self taught" thing. You're not in an apprenticeship, being trained by a company or dishing out a lot of cash to a school to "show you" the things you want to learn. You are taking the initiative to pick up what study materials are available and disciplining yourself to sit down with it and practice. No-one around to tell you what you're doing right or wrong ... it's trial and error as you develop your own style from the things that interest you in the course of study.

That is "self taught". No-one else can take credit for your initiative and discipline.

Attached is the scroll that the instructor did for the class I took a few years ago. Of all the stuff I picked up in James Meeks book or in the 1st Ron Smith book ... I have been trying to re-define what I learned (with difficulty) to take my scroll to a more advanced level. I've almost had to try to forget some of that stuff as I'm figuring out what I like and what I don't. Looking at this helps me a great deal. It's simple but has all the components of a wonderful scroll with well structured leaves and perfect shading. I prefer a 60/40 percentage of positive space (scroll + leaves) to negative space (background) for higher end work. That can be adjusted as you want to save cutting time.

Catch ya later Curt, this all should help ya get going pretty good.

Chris

[Vanknife]

Good day Curt,
Thanks.

I agree one hundred percent with Chris on his explanation of “self taught” the discipline lies deep within one self and if you would struggle to stick to that it is going to be very hard to gain anything worth your wile.

Copy my Design? I don’t think so for all that is in that design is but elements of scrolls and leaves that I saw in other art work, I just arranged them to my liking and to suite the canvas that it was intended for.

I want to tell you this I am a custom knife maker and we have a club in South Africa were we get together every 2 or 3 months and we did a study on copying some others work, We gave about 15 people the same shape knife blank and asked them to complete the knife with a few basic rules and the most important one was not to alter the basic outline shape of the knife. At the end of the day there might have been 2 or 3 that was close in similarity. The rest was all unique and well made.

So what I really want to say is we are all different and we do things different although the basics stay the same.
The most important thing is to enjoy and yes we all like a little encouragement and acknowledgement to fuel the next trip in this stunning world of art.

You can have a look at some of my knives on my web page.
www.vansknives.co.za

Cheers

“VAN”

[SVD]

I think if you have your own vision that it's almost impossible to copy someone else's work.

I remember a photography trip I was on several years ago. One guy and I wound up basically side by side all day. Looking over the pictures later it was almost impossible to tell - even when we were taking pictures of the same thing at the same time.

The only way you'll get a copy of someone else's work is to literally work very hard to do so - darn near tracing the thing. Not to say you can't wind up with something that's obviously done from someone else's work, just that your own style (amorphous and evolving as it may be) will show through.

[SpiderCurt]

Hi All

Chris - That scroll is all you said it would be and more. It also gave me a better idea of how leaves on the outside of the backbone should be drawn in. Thanks loads!

Van - I am glad that is cleared up. Being a new member of this forum, I don't want to start a feud. On the other hand I certainly wasn't too careful when I made the remark about "self taught", which to my mind deserves as much recognition as a classroom environment education.
I started to check out your web site but got sidetracked by having to earn a dollar or two. What I did manage to see looked beautiful

Steve - Thanks, I hope everyone shares that view.

Thanks again everybody. Gotta go finish rebuilding a computer so I can pay my bills. Then I can get back to drawing again

[dave gibson]

The main thing I see wrong is the lack of symmetry,like Chris says ,draw one side then trace the other. Layout is of paramount importance, if you start from the center and go out , put your main spirals in the same place on both sides, and everything else HAS TO fall in place. If you draw both sides this way instead of tracing, the slight differences your eye and hand make from side to side make the whole composition all the more interesting. When I practice scrolls, I layout an irregular box shape with several paralell sides (like some sort of gun plate) ,fill the area with spirals to where it doesn't look crowded (about 60 to 75% full) , double line the backbone and add leaves,simple, eh? I honestly believe practice is the ONLY way to make this complex task appear simple, and drawing it yourself, you can make it as simple or complex as you like, and the real payoffis cutting. A tattoo artist friend says " Ya' gots ta do what fits yer hand" and this is a tailored fit

[SpiderCurt]

Hi Dave and welcome to the forum.

Thank you for your comments and I apologize for not replying in a more timely manner. My day job put my drawing on hold and although I was able to read the posts in the main forum, had me so preoccupied that I didn't remember to check this thread.

Thanks again to you and the others who have offered their expertise.

[pat]

Originally Posted by SVD

Not bad! :thumbsup:

I've been printing off a lot of pictures from the forums lately of other people's leaves. I have one leaf I can draw fairly well but want to expand.

Don't forget to cut a design every now and then - there are things that cutting a design will teach you that nothing else will.

Hi Steve,I see you have mentioned that you have a little trouble with drawing mirrored images.I have found a little gem of a book that deals with this and much more.The author is Betty Edwards and it's called "Drawing from the right side of the brain".I reccomend this read for any one who is having problems with any aspect of their drawing. Just sayin Pat